This Whole Pats Cheating Is All Bullshit

[eliforpres]

Why? You ask! heres why --- Name me 1 NFL Coach that doesn't have a guy concentrating on the Defensive Coordinator's signal calls?? I am calling out any football analyst to tell me and debate me over this entire debacle that is being put on Belichick and the New England Patriots organization.

This has been done for YEARS probably since the begining -- The Pats just used a camera instead of a set of EYES and those signals can be seen very easily with the naked eye. So lets all punish the Pat's for doing it SMARTER AND MORE INGENIOUSLY then the other team. Sheesh this is such BULLSHIT it makes me sick.

What wins football games is EXECUTION OF THE PLAY -- Not knowing what the Defense is doing -- Good defense's can adjust quickly to the offensive play being called -- IT's called READ AND REACT -- The Middle Linebacker is the guy who is responsible for calling the audible when the Offense is set up PERIOD. He needs to READ what is going on and adjust to it Period End Of Story.

Peace
EFP

[Go_Eli]

I doubt the Giants do it...new technology for them is a no no...

Here's a picture of the Giants braintrust working with new technology...

http://chrisjagers.net/wp/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/cavemen.jpg

[Steeler Fanatic]

EFP, normally I agree with most of what you have to say. In this case, you are dead wrong.

First of all, there was a clear league notice sent out on this very issue because the Patriots violated it last year against the Packers. It has been against the rules for a long time and the competition comittee makes it clear every year what the rules are. The Patriots have been suspected of playing dirty pool for a good while now in a number of different areas, and now some of it is coming to light. Bellichick knew what the rule was, knowingly violated it, and got caught. Simple as that. The team should be docked draft picks.

[TexasCowboy]

Patriots interfered with coaches headsets

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...ex.html?eref=T1

"At one point we had a good drive going against the Patriots," said one Lion who doesn't want his name involved in this mess, but was willing to talk about it. "Mike Martz really had 'em going. They were getting fouled up, lining up wrong, we were moving the ball. Then boom, the headset from the sidelines to the coaches' booth goes out.

"Next possession we were moving the ball again and the same thing happened. You know it only takes two or three plays to mess up a drive."

Matt Millen, the Lions' GM, was talking to Bengals' coach Marvin Lewis at the league meetings. He started telling him the story.

"Yeah, I know," Lewis said. "Headset went out. It happened to me in Foxboro, too."

Marinelli was the defensive line coach in Tampa Bay when the Bucs beat the Patriots in the 2000 regular season opener and did a good job controlling New England's offense. After the game the Patriots' offensive coach, Charlie Weis, was overheard congratulating the Bucs' defensive coordinator, Monte Kiffin.

"We knew all your calls, and you still stopped us," Weis said. "I can't believe it."

[TexasCowboy]

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/7189/patriotslogopatpatriot2qc3.jpg

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/9616/patsxq7.jpg

[eliforpres]

Ok so what about ALL THE ASST. COACHES who have worked under Belichick who at the time they worked for him knew about this and condoned it at that time.

So they left and became Head Coaches coordinators and such and NEVER SAID A WORD ABOUT IT until NOW Such as Weiss Mangini Et. Etc. --- Isn't that being very Hypocritical and cheating also?? -- This is just a lot of Bullshit because every team out there knows the Pats are way too good and way too talented to beat.

Im sorry guys if these coaches came forward then -- I would say Damn but it's too late now -- So they are just as guilty as Belichick.

I would also like to see the Ruleing as worded ver batem in the Official NFL rule book. Belichick may in fact have found a loophold in said rule.

Peace
EFP

[Steeler Fanatic]

No loop hole, Goodell is trying to figure out what to do to punish Bellichick.

The point is, and I think this is where the issue becomes a real big deal, is that he was warned before. He willingly defied the NFL, and now he's going to pay the price.

What is really fascinating to me is that most NFL coaches close ranks when one of their own is in some kind of trouble, or at least they don't comment on it. But every single coach interviewed about this issue has been willing to take a shot at Bellichick, which leads me to believe that a lot of people have experienced this cheap bullshit from the Patriots. Ditto for players who usually don't comment on stuff like this.

Bottom line is that the Patriots organization broke the rules, they knew it, Bellichick knew it, and now the organization and the man are going to pay a price for it.

[TexasCowboy]

2 first round draft choices would be forfeited by the Patriots and NFL
commissioner Roger Goodell has executive power which grants him the
right to take the win away from the Patriots and give it to the Jets or
make both teams play the game over again

[Steeler Fanatic]

My guess is that they lose a draft pick, possibly two, and Bellichick gets a 1-2 game suspension without pay, during which time he is banned from contact with the team or from attending practices or even being at their offices or training facilities.

From what I am hearing Goodell has ruled out forfeiting the win from the Patriots. Decision should come in a day or two as to what the penalty is going to be.

As an aside, of all team to get caught up in this type of stupid crap, why the Patriots? They had the least to gain from it, as they are already a great team that can compete and beat damn near anyone, and the most to lose, as now their championships and winning ways are being called into question. Stupid, stupid move.

[eliforpres]

SF Im not saying it is right -- What I am saying is EVERY TEAM DOES IT -- Why did Mangini wait till he got his ass kicked to say something --- He CONDONED IT WHEN HE WAS WITH THE PATS. Doesn't that make him as guilty as Bill Belichick?? -- Let he who be without sin cast the first stone

Peace
EFP

[MRAVEN]

$750K fine,no 1st round pick if they make the playoffs.
Just heard it on ESPN.

[Ray-ven Mad]

Maybe down the stretch, they can make trades with Jet's opponents trying to make the playoffs. "We'll trade you a couple reels of tape for your 2008 first round pick"
Listen, this doesn't tarnish shit. Look at the history of sports and competition in general. I don't care if it is steroids, video taping, eye gouging, pine tar, stickem' or whatever. People will always do anything they can get away with to get an edge. Those of you sitting on your high horse about the recent steroid controversy aren't sitting there with million dollar contracts staring at you so you have no room to talk.
So, yeah, cheating is wrong, but conversely, it is to be expected. So people need to drop the illusion that sports is some beacon of integrity and accept the fact that competition will bring the worst out in people as well as the best. What was that quote? "If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying" or "It's not cheating if you don't get caught"

[Steeler Fanatic]

Ok, now that I have some time on my hands, let me put down what I think about this whole mess.

First off, I don't believe that it diminishes the skill of the New England players. Tom Brady still had to make those throws, the defense still had to make some great plays, and overall the team still had to execute well to win. So from that perspective, it's easy to ask why this matters. Like it or not, the Patriots are still a really good football team, regardless of the videotaping shenanigans.

Second, I don't believe that the videotaping itself is the biggest issue. It IS an issue, and should be treated as such, but to me that's not even the biggest issue here. The biggest issue is that everyone in the league was specifically warned prior to this season about this very issue, because of the Patriots past actions, and here they go and do it again THE VERY FIRST GAME. Not only that, but they go and do it to a guy who probably knew it was coming. What kind of unmitigated gall does that take? Still, the intentional spitting in the face of the NFL is not what everyone wants to talk about. So let's get down to the nitty gritty.

This issue revolves around one thing and one thing only, and that is the integrity of the league. People want to believe that when their team wins, it is because of superior preparation, practice, and hard work. Belichick, who was once regarded as the ultimate thinking man's coach, just trashed that image by showing that he relied on a cheat sheet to get ahead. What pisses me off about this is that once you start doing shit like this to gain a "competitive advantage", it's no longer about football. It's just about getting ahead of the competition. For years I hated Belichick, but I respected him. Indeed, there was no coach I more feared for my Steelers to face, and with good reason. I respected and in some ways envied the way his teams always seemed to be in the huddle of their opposition. I thought it was due to a brilliant mind with a knack for film study. GAME FILM STUDY. Turns out, he has a knack for film study alright, just not the type I thought. And what this scandal shows is that Belichick and his operatives were willing to use any tactic to win, regardless of the ethical and moral consequences, and indeed willingly tried to shortcut the process of having to prepare for an opponent by stealing their signals on videotape. Perhaps he really is the genius everyone labeled him as for so long, but as of right now there is a cloud over that label.

And before you go too far off the deep end on this "everyone does it" bandwagon, let me remind you that not a single NFL coach has come to Belichick's defense on this one. You would think that in an "everyone does it" league, that several coaches would come forward to minimize how much effect such behavior could have, if for no other reason than to cover their own ass. Not a single coach has, and indeed several coaches have done the opposite and fired off shots at the Patriots. Even Tony Dungy, who is typically a fairly even handed man, has had some negative comments about it. For decades a tacit gentleman's agreement has existed between most coaches in the NFL to not engage in the type of spying and subterfuge that has characterized this particular scandal. Have all coaches held to it? Obviously not, but that doesn't change the fact that it's poor sportsmanship and even worse judgment. I don't believe everyone does it. Using your eyes to see hand signs is one thing and is perfectly legal. Videotaping them for later use has been clearly banned by the NFL for a long time, and every team knows it.

Speaking of other coaches, I do believe that the reason Mangini had no comment about it was that he was up to his eyeballs in it while he was with the Pats organization. I agree with your statement that the Patriots assistants who knew it was going on are just as guilty. As far as other coaches reporting it, or teams reporting it, nobody in this league wants to be the crybaby when they lose. In many cases, I think, they thought they were the only one, or had an incomplete picture of what was going on. It's only now with all these allegations coming out, that many different club personell from around the league have started to see a more complete picture of a pattern of behavior. Just my .02

[TexasCowboy]

I think Goodell needs to make the Patriots forfeit the game, it's not fair to the
Jets that New England is being awarded the win, when it's clear the Patriots
had to cheat to accomplish the victory

[Go_Eli]

I think Goodell needs to make the Patriots forfeit the game, it's not fair to the
Jets that New England is being awarded the win, when it's clear the Patriots
had to cheat to accomplish the victory

Not really. Pats should probably forfeit it but I don't think they needed to cheat to win - they aren't the Raiders.

[TexasCowboy]

The game was played unfairly and so it makes me question as to whether or
not the Patriots would have been able to beat the Jets? so if making them
forfeit the win is not a option, which at this point it's not..then Goodell IMO
needs to make them replay the game over

[eliforpres]

OMG I've heard it all now -- How could he have had the tim to break down the film and use it against the JETS on sunday -- In fact they never even looked at the film -- This whole damn thing is NONSENSE

I dont care EVERY COACh IN THE NFL DOES THIS -- Thats why the comish didnt suspend Belichick -- That would have opened pandoras box and then UH OH Call out the weapons inspectors and lEts audit EVERY TEAMS FILM ROOM, NOTE BOOK, Sticky Pad, Memo, lets get the gaustapo and torture the coaches for information on Spying on the other team And see what evidence is out there.

I gaurantee every HC Asst and co-ordinator is guilty and they all would have gotten suspended

Peace
EFP

[Steeler Fanatic]

Dude, I seriously think you are dead wrong on that point. If every coach in the NFL were videotaping signals, this would have come up already in a bigger context. Also, if every coach were guilty, then they would have circled the wagon around Belichick, rather than let him have it the way they did. There has been a "gentleman's agreement" among coaches for a long time now not to get involved in this kind of crap. Not to say that it's not violated from time to time, but overall they don't do it. Half the coaches in the NFL yesterday had something negative to say about the activity in question. You really think they would all be talking smack like that if they themselves were involved in it?

I respect you as an intelligent football fan, EFP, but in this case you're flat wrong.

[eliforpres]

SF i never said Video Taping -- I said Spying -- And it's done every time a game is played -- It's called an edge -- It can be done very easily with a notebook and Pencil -- Hell even Madden said it is part of the GAME and always has been There is always someone SPYING on signal calls from the sidelines and YES they know the defense that is coming

Peace
EFP

[Senior Official]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EU1O-hGxgg

Shady Brady, Belicheat?

[Go_Eli]

SF i never said Video Taping -- I said Spying -- And it's done every time a game is played -- It's called an edge -- It can be done very easily with a notebook and Pencil -- Hell even Madden said it is part of the GAME and always has been There is always someone SPYING on signal calls from the sidelines and YES they know the defense that is coming

Peace
EFP

I think there's a huge difference with using video technology and simply stealing signals because you picked them up.

[eliforpres]

Ok What about GAME FILM -- What about ESPN and NFL NETWORK breaking down almost every play -- and Yes I see the Signals every week being sent in on the Television -- Whats the difference -- Please Tell Me

Besides you really think these coaches dont change their signals weekly -- If they dont they are stupid --- You certainly dont have time to use that games Signals Film during That Game, after all there is only 15 mins in the half, and they have much more pressing needs to attend to during the half, maybe future games but not that one. So I really dont see what the issue is here

[Go_Eli]

Ok What about GAME FILM -- What about ESPN and NFL NETWORK breaking down almost every play -- and Yes I see the Signals every week being sent in on the Television -- Whats the difference -- Please Tell Me

Besides you really think these coaches dont change their signals weekly -- If they dont they are stupid --- You certainly dont have time to use that games Signals Film during That Game, after all there is only 15 mins in the half, and they have much more pressing needs to attend to during the half, maybe future games but not that one. So I really dont see what the issue is here

Are you serious? ESPN doesn't break down every play. ESPN doesn't break down what the Giants do on 3rd and 5 every game like coaches do.

And here's a difference...

http://www.touchdown.org/pats-camera.jpg

ESPN doesn't have a guy on the field looking at opposing coaches and the signals they're delivering.

[eliforpres]

I didnt say EVERY PLAY -- The Networks do a good job of that though --- And the GAME FILM IS GIVEN TO EACH AND EVERY TEAM WEEKLY -- Again I say this whole thing is BULLSHIT period

Every team since the begining of the NFL has done this in one way or the other so Whats the big deal --- Hell if your team EXECUTES THEIR PLAY/S they will win no matter if the other team knows it or not

[Go_Eli]

I didnt say EVERY PLAY -- The Networks do a good job of that though --- And the GAME FILM IS GIVEN TO EACH AND EVERY TEAM WEEKLY -- Again I say this whole thing is BULLSHIT period

Every team since the begining of the NFL has done this in one way or the other so Whats the big deal --- Hell if your team EXECUTES THEIR PLAY/S they will win no matter if the other team knows it or not

LOL no they don't. They show a handful of plays and that's it. You think coaches sit around and watch ESPN? No.

EFP...there's a difference between preparing your team by watching film and telling them the exact play that's about to be run because you video taped it and analyzed it.

Have you heard the issue about communications and headsets?

[Steeler Fanatic]

Actually, in strictest point of fact, the NFL gives "coaches film" to each team every week. The film is made a in room that is totally enclosed on all sides but the one facing the field, and shows only what happens on the field. Is it possible to pick up defensive signals this way? Sure. But you're not going to get every single one and be able to corrolate via video each and every play to a signal.

As I keep repeating, to me the big issue is that they were warned not to do it, specifically, and went and did it anyway. A lot of players and coaches who get paid to do this and have done it their whole lives think it represents a competitive advantage. I take their word for it, and I think the punishment meted out by the league is well deserved.

[Ray-ven Mad]

The game was played unfairly and so it makes me question as to whether or
not the Patriots would have been able to beat the Jets? so if making them
forfeit the win is not a option, which at this point it's not..then Goodell IMO
needs to make them replay the game over

Damn straight that game was played unfairly. The Jets should have been allowed to use two extra guys on defense to try to stop Brady to Moss. Maybe then the game would have been played on an even field. No, make that about four extra guys. Make that four extra guys with guns.
You can have all the video tape in the world. You still have to line up and knock a motherfucker over or out run them. That's why when good teams like the Patriots get rolling, other teams know damn well what is coming and they just can't stop it.

[eliforpres]

Damn straight that game was played unfairly. The Jets should have been allowed to use two extra guys on defense to try to stop Brady to Moss. Maybe then the game would have been played on an even field. No, make that about four extra guys. Make that four extra guys with guns.
You can have all the video tape in the world. You still have to line up and knock a motherfucker over or out run them. That's why when good teams like the Patriots get rolling, other teams know damn well what is coming and they just can't stop it.

THANKS Ray-ven Mad -- My point exactly -- EXECUTION wins games -- Adjustments Win Games -- Not Signals that need to be Broken down and analyzed -- So there was NO DISADVANTAGE at all -- Those calls can be seen from everywhere on the field -- So Fucking What -- again EVERY TEAM DOES IT -- ask anty Ex NFL College or even HS coach -- It's part of the game

[breid689]

I think the whole thing is a case of envy. The whiners are just envious. The Patriots dominate because they're that good- and I'm talking about the players together as a team-coaching notwithstanding. Those guys operate great together, they get it done.

[TexasCowboy]

I think the whole thing is a case of envy. The whiners are just envious. The Patriots dominate because they're that good- and I'm talking about the players together as a team-coaching notwithstanding. Those guys operate great together, they get it done.

Envy? listen puke your new here so I am gonna cut you some slack newbie but
you can't be serious? before Parcells turned that team in to what they are now
nobody even heard or knew about the Patriots, they were like the Giants a non
existent franchise..now all of a sudden New England comes along after losing 2
super bowls. One coming via a blow out against Chicago..fans are now suppose
to be jealous of New England?

you got alot to learn here newbie so sit back, relax and enjoy our board and
please don't ever post bullshit like that again

[breid689]

Firstly-post bullshit? Its an opinion, mine. Period. For someone who lives in Conn. and claims to live in Texas?-talk about your bullshit.
Besides what the hell kind of greeting to a newcomers is that?
Fuck off Jerk-Off,
I'll post whatever the FUCK opinion I want.

[eliforpres]

Damn Tex got OWNED by a NEWBIE